Curse

Test Me · Jul 23, 2009, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

the point JR is making is commitment through monetary means, and ANet would rather not spread the cash thinner than it already is by running official forums and paying the dedicated people needed to mod them, update them, service them, etc

Official forums are not exclusive, not even the invention of MMOs. A lot of stand alone games offer them.

Related to costs, this forum is run by volunteers? How much does this forum cost? How much more expensive could it really get to maintain an official domain?

Last, if your trust in the GW franchise is such that you don't even think they made enough money to maintain a forum... ... what more is there to say? And is it really in your grasp to judge the financial capabilities of ANet?

Lonesamurai · Jul 23, 2009, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Related to costs, this forum is run by volunteers? How much does this forum cost? How much more expensive could it really get to maintain an official domain?

actually its NOT run by volunteers, most fan forums cost the money of the server, any software needed and the larger ones are part of company structures/networks like the Guru Network

Kattar · Jul 23, 2009, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

this forum is run by volunteers?

The moderators and most of the admins are volunteers.

Test Me · Jul 23, 2009, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

actually its NOT run by volunteers, most fan forums cost the money of the server, any software needed and the larger ones are part of company structures/networks like the Guru Network

Exactly. So GW Guru can afford it, but ANet wouldn't be able. Hmmm.

Please allow me to maintain my position that is it not a financial decision, but rather a conscious lack of attention/interest/however you want to put it... they chose to treat the community with.

Lonesamurai · Jul 23, 2009, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Exactly. So GW Guru can afford it, but ANet wouldn't be able. Hmmm.

Please allow me to maintain my position that is it not a financial decision, but rather a conscious lack of attention/interest/however you want to put it... they chose to treat the community with.

Ok as Katsumi said they are volunteers here, but the difference is that the guru network is NOT a games dev company, its built for just websites and forums and thats what it does

BUT, the point is, sure ANet CAN afford it, but wouldn't you rather the cost spent on the forum be spent on development of a better game?

RotteN · Jul 23, 2009, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

BUT, the point is, sure ANet CAN afford it, but wouldn't you rather the cost spent on the forum be spent on development of a better game?

One could argue that a decently run forum with decent moderation to filter the noise from the good input, would actually lead to the development of a better game.

But then again i do remember some ocassions where Anet did listen to player input, but then proceeded to simply ignore said input.

Kattar · Jul 23, 2009, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

So GW Guru can afford it

I think we finally made a profit last year too. A whole $27 if I recall correctly.

JR · Jul 23, 2009, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

the point JR is making is commitment through monetary means, and ANet would rather not spread the cash thinner than it already is by running official forums and paying the dedicated people needed to mod them, update them, service them, etc

I was talking in general, not specific to Guild Wars. I'm not entirely certain ArenaNet isn't considering official forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Exactly. So GW Guru can afford it, but ANet wouldn't be able. Hmmm.

Don't be ridiculous. Managing an official forum of that scale would be way too much responsibility for volounteer mods, and Guru would simply not be viable if Inde had to pay staff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Last, if your trust in the GW franchise is such that you don't even think they made enough money to maintain a forum... ... what more is there to say? And is it really in your grasp to judge the financial capabilities of ANet?

School boy tactics. Nobody is saying ArenaNet can't afford to. We are saying they might simply have a better use for that large chunk of money elsewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

And is it really in your grasp to judge the financial capabilities of ANet?

More than it is within your grasp to judge whether or not ArenaNet will or should have an official forum.

Lonesamurai · Jul 23, 2009, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

One could argue that a decently run forum with decent moderation to filter the noise from the good input, would actually lead to the development of a better game.

But then again i do remember some ocassions where Anet did listen to player input, but then proceeded to simply ignore said input.

and the few times they listened to player input, did it exactly that ay and the utter shitstorm that followed cos it was BAD!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

I think we finally made a profit last year too. A whole $27 if I recall correctly.

and thats over the whole guru network right?

but thats the part about the fansite thing, we don't (most of us) do it to make money, we do it to build a community of like minded people that we want to spend time with enjoying similar things and each builds a different segment of a greater whole

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

I was talking in general, not specific to Guild Wars. I'm not entirely certain ArenaNet isn't considering official forums.

ok fair point, but I still stand by what I said

Kattar · Jul 23, 2009, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lone

and thats over the whole guru network right?

Not sure about the whole network. Inde didn't specify as to whether she was talking about this site or the whole network. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the whole network though.

Test Me · Jul 23, 2009, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

BUT, the point is, sure ANet CAN afford it, but wouldn't you rather the cost spent on the forum be spent on development of a better game?

Yes I would. And this is where we come down to:

I believe "a better" game has first class community support.

While unofficial fan sites are very important as well, this does not justify the lack of an official community site.

So I can only conclude that ANet is not willing to give the attention its great community deserves. Which may be due to the fact that they didn't expect themselves to create such a big community around their game, or be as successful and now they're in denial about the existence of the community.

And until that perception does not change in the minds of whoever takes decisions at ANet, things won't change. State of information of GW2 will remain the same. Lack of an official community site will perpetuate even after GW2. Regina, Martin and us will still surf the web to find some concept art on some art contest blog, some information about a book on some obscure bookseller site, some ideas people have about the game and post in some corner of the web, etc.

And you do realize only very hard core fans are willing to go through so much trouble to find their "game community" and information about it, don't you?

I, for one, know community management could be better. And *for me* at least, it's clear as day what ANet's lack of interest in supporting an official community means.

slowerpoke · Jul 23, 2009, 12:33 PM // 12:33

It would benefit the community and Anet to have an official forum.

The playerbase would have a central location to gather without being spread thin amongst dozens of smaller sites, and anet would not need to monitor all those sites to communicate with the community, it would be done in one place.

The board could have sections for feeback and suggestions, again so this information is not scattered all over the internet and given directly to them.

As with other games companies, developers could directly interact with fans through an official forum instead of simply having the CMs do it.

It would also fix the problem the wiki has, in that people use it like discussion forum and to post suggestions, which is not what its for. It should be simply about documenting the games, information related to it and being a resource for players not a hangout for the sycophants.

Ravious · Jul 23, 2009, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

I was talking in general, not specific to Guild Wars. I'm not entirely certain ArenaNet isn't considering official forums.

Oh dear [deity of choice], NO. The average intelligence, maturity, and age level would plummet. [Joke about how can we possibly go lower than now.]

Inde · Jul 23, 2009, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Apparently some of you haven't visited "official" forums. ArenaNet has made a choice to only have 2 community managers to post on a forum. This has nothing to do with "official" or "non-official" but a company decision. They are branching out just a bit on the wiki but there's no reason this would change with an official forum.

Second, please... seriously, visit some of the official mmo gaming forums. There's a part of me that laughs that some of you think they are better. Trust me, allllll the same qq'ers, whiners, complainers, walls-of-text, suggestions, complaints, discussions, flames and more are the same. The tone doesn't change. (Though I'm sure someone will now point me in a direction of a shining beacon of example for a small game that has 1,000 followers). This is a 4 year old game and any older game is going to have pretty much the same community that Guru does now of this size.

I guess, doing this for as long as I have, please tell me WHY having an official forum is better. If it's all the same posts, the same people, the same devs posting as they do on the fansites then what is the benefit? Do you think it would be more closely moderated or less? (And this is a highly debatable point no matter which side you choose.) Do you think your suggestion would be seen more or less under the weight of 3 times the amount of people that post here? Do you think the noise ratio would go down or up? (That was rhetorical, of course the noise would go up). Do you think the # of complainers would somehow lessen? Since Anet has made the decision to only have the CM's post this wouldn't change for an official forum... sorry.

Servant of Kali · Jul 23, 2009, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Newsflash: no news about GW and here's why:

ArenaNet has to weigh whether withholding information gives them more money, or giving information. It's that simple.

The main reason why ArenaNet is not giving you info about GW2, none at all, is because they don't want you to think about GW2. At all. With constant news about GW2 everyone will "prepare" for GW2 that's "almost there". But this actually decreases the profit ArenaNet can make. The best approach they can have is maintain a picture of GW1 as still lively active place worth *buying*.

Buy bonus mission pack.
Buy EotN and other campaigns.
Buy makeup.
Buy character slots.

Etc.

The truth is, GW1 is still a quality game, it's still relatively active although it shifted more to alliance and guild based game and not pug game.

When ArenaNet is giving you info on GW2, ArenaNet isn't making money. But when you buy bonus mission pack - they are making money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rotten

But hey, welcome to capitalism, where companies cannot really afford losing 39% of their playerbase because "they're whiny children"

I like capitalism, but there are many different forms of it. Companies don't lose playerbase because of whiny players. You see, in capitalism, the most important thing is to sell. It's not the happiness of people who buy products. It's sale. As long as ArenaNet can sell GW1 GW2 GW99 and keep selling it, they can have billions of whiny players. They still earn money.

Btw, 39% of people who are voted "I'm whiny" in this poll, are not people who won't buy GW2. They only voted for "Yes, I'm whiny". It should be noted that Guild Wars sold a lot of copies to people who never played online-only game before. I'm one of them. This is my only MMO (or quasi-MMO as you wish) - I simply don't like others (paying monthly fee isn't a problem). Many of these casual players will buy GW2, even if 20 forum members here won't because ArenaNet didn't have Tweeter

JR · Jul 23, 2009, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

I guess, doing this for as long as I have, please tell me WHY having an official forum is better. If it's all the same posts, the same people, the same devs posting as they do on the fansites then what is the benefit? Do you think it would be more closely moderated or less? (And this is a highly debatable point no matter which side you choose.) Do you think your suggestion would be seen more or less under the weight of 3 times the amount of people that post here? Do you think the noise ratio would go down or up? (That was rhetorical, of course the noise would go up). Do you think the # of complainers would somehow lessen? Since Anet has made the decision to only have the CM's post this wouldn't change for an official forum... sorry.

- You control all of the announcements and news directly, so you can keep the message on point and consistent.

- You set the tone and the level of moderation, so it is attractive to potential members.

- You can make sure it's a well structured and fully functional forum.

- Official forums allow you to do cool stuff like tie in game account data directly to the forum profile.

- You can pay to make sure there is full moderator coverage of every section around the clock.

- You can task paid mods with additional responsibility, such as writing weekly reports on problems or issues of note, calling you directly if there is a problem, or submitting bug reports.

Those are just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are more and possibly better reasons to have an official forum. Not that I'm arguing for an official forum, but I'm not arguing against it either.

Test Me · Jul 23, 2009, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

I guess, doing this for as long as I have, please tell me WHY having an official forum is better.

I did not imply an official community site would mean "better". But if you want to discuss advantages:

- it's official and people will know so

- it's easily *discoverable* and people will go there, it could be even linked from ingame

- it helps with segmentation of the community

- it *provides* a default place to go for *official* information instead of searching like crazy around the web for bits and pieces here and there

- it provides a default place for players to give insight about the game and throw ideas about improvements (why should i post my idea on guru vs any other side? will I get more chances to be heard on unofficial site x or y? - most of the people would give up their idea before they get to answer these questions, as it's not really worth trying to find the right answer)

- again it's official so at least it gives players the impression they would be read/heard

- also importantly even developers might keep an eye on it. Why would developers ever need to acknowledge there is a community out there since they themselves don't know of the existence of any official forum that they might go read if they get bored in the lunch break. Will they read guru? Maybe, but chances are much smaller.

- and it will send a clear sign that ANet acknowledges there is a community out there and *wants* to provide tools to help that community keep going and grow. Right now they don't even have an official builds repository which is the core of their game (!?).

- did I say it already: it's official. And official has both ways implications: it's official for ANet they have a community and they have to take care of it they can't just ignore it or put it on mute as easily as they can pretend Guild Wars Guru doesn't exist, and it's official from our perspective as players too. Did they ever gather any stats about how active their players are on the web, did they ever measured the buzz they generate with one thing or announcement? This can prove to be vital information for any online business that of course they can ignore.

Right now... unless I knew where to search for (which is asking quite a lot) I would have no clue there is any sort of community for GW and ANet shows no interest to help or even acknowledge one exists.

Lonesamurai · Jul 23, 2009, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Test, quick question though, what about the whatever% of the community from ANY game that just plays the game and never goes anywhere near a forum for that game?

EDIT: ok, no number but the point is fact

Inde · Jul 23, 2009, 01:20 PM // 13:20

JR, stop being an antagonist. Test me, I agree with your last bullet point. All the others, you kind of started supporting my argument in the first place. More people just means take any problem on Guru and multiply it. And Lone, you are just throwing out random #'s.

JR · Jul 23, 2009, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

I did not imply an official community site would mean "better". But if you want to discuss advantages:

- it's official and people will know so

I don't see how Regina or Martin commenting on threads here is any less official than them commenting on an official forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

- it's easily *discoverable* and people will go there, it could be even linked from ingame

Fansites could be linked to from ingame if ArenaNet wanted to do that. How discoverable fansites are is entirely up to ArenaNet. They could link Guru from the front page of GuildWars.com if they wanted to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

- it helps with segmentation of the community

I assume you mean it helps avoid segmentation?

Segmentation of huge MMO community is a GOOD thing. Separating people into like-minded groups improves the signal/noise ratio by reducing friction between factions of the playerbase.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

- it *provides* a default place to go for *official* information instead of searching like crazy around the web for bits and pieces here and there

GuildWars.com could be a default place to go for *official* information if it was actually well maintained.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

- it provides a default place for players to give insight about the game and throw ideas about improvements (why should i post my idea on guru vs any other side? will I get more chances to be heard on unofficial site x or y? - most of the people would give up their idea before they get to answer these questions, as it's not really worth trying to find the right answer)

Again, terrible signal/noise of an official forum trumps that arguement.

Your suggestion posted a fansite may or may not be immediately noticed by a developer, but neither will it be buried under hundreds of other QQ threads. There is no reason why a thread posted on Guru (the biggest Guild Wars fan community) would have less attention paid to it than one on an official forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

- again it's official so at least it gives players the impression they would be read/heard

Same point as above; same answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

- also importantly even developers might keep an eye on it. Why would developers ever need to acknowledge there is a community out there since they themselves don't know of the existence of any official forum that they might go read if they get bored in the lunch break. Will they read guru? Maybe, but chances are much smaller.

Again, signal/noise ratio. Why would they read a forum that is 90% 12 year old kids crying about their class being underpowered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

- and it will send a clear sign that ANet acknowledges there is a community out there and *wants* to provide tools to help that community keep going and grow. Right now they don't even have an official builds repository which is the core of their game (!?).

It would be a really great start if Anet would acknowledge that THIS community exists. Learn to walk before you can run, and all that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Right now... unless I knew where to search for (which is asking quite a lot) I would have no clue there is any sort of community for GW and ANet shows no interest to help or even acknowledge one exists.

That's no arguement for an official forum, that's a problem with Anets current practices.